Ishmael author Daniel Quinn: Saving the World, Moving Beyond Civilization: Part 2 of 2

Ishmael author Daniel Quinn: Saving the World, Moving Beyond Civilization: Part 2 of 2


What is the place of humans in the world? I see our place as a top predator in the food chain. Just like lions, or eagles. We are members of a community. A community that follows, what I call, the Law of Limited Competition. It is found universally among the creatures of the living
community and the Law of Limited Competition is you make compete to the fullest of your ability but you may not hunt down your
competitors to make them dead and you may not
destroy the food of other species simply to be destroying it. Baboons will attack a tiger that it comes across but they will not hunt tigers down to
kill them just to make dead and they won’t destroy the food of the tigers to make them extinct. The reason they do this is not because they’re noble, it’s because it would be evolutionarily unstable to do this to kill, to hunt down, to spend time hunting down your competitors
and making their food unavailable to them does not get any food for you. In other words, it is just waste. It isn’t feeding you, and so it doesn’t work, and if you
do it you’re going to go down. You’re not going to go up. You’re going to go down. But we have adopted that breaking that law as part of our
fundamental structure. We hunt down to kill, to make dead, our competitors I we’ve 102 down kill
them made them that all over Europe course
with so still at work and at in in America coming off the Coyotes the wall for we
find them on doesn’t and it down protect our food doesn’t get any more food protect her
food so we justify and we think it’s a noble
thing and of course we are we happily destroy force that support 2012 other species and we don’t the this piece you don’t have certainly
become texting when we have cut down one forest going
cut down 20 or 100 he had become extinct for that that is part about 150 species to
disappear every day if the ones that we whose ecological
supports we destroyed so we are we r mmm outlaws in the living community at as we are president you are not
outlaws before are injured and services were not outlaws other
species did become extinct on and this this they didn’t didn’t become extinct
because I our ancestors wanted them dead wanted to
make think because they did they didn’t realize
you’re making think happen example the and Mastodon we 100 those to thank him but always assume there was another one
over the hill and eventually there was no more on
over-the-hill but they didn’t want to destroy their own food why they did it unintentionally and it is noted for example that has been
found that kinda they found grounds where I hope water buffaloes were killed showing what we could people are time
the American Indians were but in fact yes as hunters know as our own 100 no I’ll yah to Buffalo at it’s not an asshole that that can be
lived awful on it orenthal comply needed on car hybrid on and in order to order get a lot love their enough food to live on yet
coho la so again they were looking to make buffalo’s extinct I just need a lot of
them cowardice my for answer couple people who raise their hands yes
but what about this I’ll re-finance esters were infected they work environment with but they would for the most part harm’s
way in the world as harm’s way if sharks or scorpion buzzards and we have to recognize that our place on yes outlaws we can survive we’re headed off the cliff and that if we if you well we will
survive if we become members and the community make urself members like all other
members not better not rulers have the community but equal depended on other members of the community the way
they’re dependent on each other what has been the role love religion in what’s going on now especially this mass extinction in I am generally a religions that would
that have survived other religions that support a our cultural mythology that support
the idea on that humans are the preeminent you have it in for the planet on that when God looks at the earth your he looking if you human doing I is in spying on hi unity spying on us I am and religions that have-nots do not
support this idea like animism for example simply are not among the major religion
animism it gets too long for any of our
religions and existed for all up humanitarian not for people here people here people here but for don’t we
all people now were for animals because it living
in the living community gives one the Animus worldview is hard
to escape the endless world view if you are actually living in the living community
on you see your membership you can avoid
you can’t you no the people have the who lived in the Arctic Circle now lived on the deer that migrated
through their territory on without the fear they couldn’t be
there and the new they were dear I’ve never
stayed so they didn’t film consider themselves
different from the deer they’re just your another state on they were better dear I don’t think any any the religions support I’m our civilizations thrust toward mass extinctions so I don’t I don’t ten-point point the
finger of blame toward any of them they remain silent now on the issue for example whether this is
the one right way for people to live it they don’t they don’t argue with it they don’t
necessarily comported supported now but remaining silent has said has stood them in good stead for all the country animism have no I’m track from on the people of
our civilization because the animist worldview is that the world is a sacred place and that humans belong in a sacred place now that sound terribly complex idea but it doesn’t worry I go well with are arm be a concept down are other religions which Tennessee the world as either a a stopping place to something better as said Kristin through I we’re here just
be tested and prided and then we die we go or we were
supposed to go good having to go to hell on and in the and in buddhism you die and and are are reborn and Diana reborn Diane reboard finally you escape a life on earth and Harley get you to your real pic which is nirvana and there is no idea that humans Geelong in a sacred place a human are fundamentally on tainted button below in Christianity for example I am born flawed with the recalled actual send they’ve seen act think been too long original sin yes far in in Adam’s fall we see in the fall on and we must a.m. Murphy somehow get underneath get out from underneath that
evil in order to on to attain heaven and and wouldn’t course have through born for unhappiness suffering is is fundamental to human
life and I am the company you have to we try to to rise above buddy you it is on ultimately on the stable
inescapable I’m people are comparable with the ideas but the ideas above through an image
from our alien is there a one past religion or wind worst I virgin or is religion important um well I don’t think I have ever kaya from the store debut a at to have fair I only get any my views
would be have any basis in a 48 about terms on the the Animus worldview is one that bind and I’m and and that people people above ever no pre
Aboriginal people throughout the world find I’m make sense to them I’ll and find agreeable I Beth but you know I and called best gold I think I believe worth nom if my I guess that as people in the new renaissance if we attended that a our current lineup religions are
going to seem less and less relevant the whole on business I’ll ok celebration and good works and and
think I’d have I from just not going to make a fence
that once made now lever people that call in Beaver people
have been Aboriginal people tribal peoples feed themselves he that
life on Earth as valuable it’s not something that it’s just a stage on the way they it’s good living is good being a lot is
good com condition and successes and isn’t
accomplishing is inventing your course getting richer
and like that but living itself is own
reward in some love your writing you written about the power love vision what do you mean by the power of vision arm the easiest wait to see it is with
regard the way we deal with power vision out called River Basin arm our own vision on certainly trouble for we feel a lot in it that 10 on displeases life and and needs correction and we start movements that to correct them we pass laws to correct them especially pass wife every year thousand applause
and but the river rolls on and I call these program other programs that we’ve put in
place fix in the river they imply impede the
flow they did they can stop but it’s the best
we have along with the rivers flowing in this
way I am in the Renaissance the river basin took a new course and I am if we’re going to survive on this planet we must have a new
patient are we’re never going to get there
putting fixed in the river on you can’t stop polluters every every state can we put in the river to employees the work I’ve polluting industries is a
compromise iris usually found to be ineffective and
commitment word and we put in another think that
punishes okay here’s what you do if we find I we
catch you and and then go to court and they 10
days says penalties and things like that and
more sick go in but you that the river keeps on
going a we can hope to save the world by putting stick in
the river we need a new beer up humanity as a species among species that should have a lifetime millions beers is no reason why we shouldn’t species become extinct when conditions become so great so change in a way that the 3 he cannot adapt to them on with a great catch appeared in Africa for example many three became extinct because there is not fast
enough to aid being coming pray and their
competitors became extinct because they couldn’t a there was no where program so on how but the people who moved into the up into the Arctic Circle living
conditions that would kill off but they found a way to adapt adapted to them and
their bodies adapted to them and they literally I at to change the
evolutionarily II in way so that they’re at home there we go there course we have to wear no
bundle up with work clothes are we die we haven’t adapted to their environment they have arm the dinosaurs could not and out to a world where most to the on foliage are we today depended was I’ll wiped out during the fun was years following the crash have this giant you’re right they couldn’t adapt information
disappeared what is the vision about our culture for
this culture as I have a vision yeah is that we have the one right way for people to live and we must continue to live this way even if it killed right given a choice people cling to it
consisted of this is the right way to live that’s why it’s so that’s really
important change to be say now we had a way of putting that was going
to drivers to extinction and it was not the
one right way for human food there is no one right way for people who
have I’m and we can live at we can live a
different way more successful way and we can learn a lot from our ancestors who with very successfully in the world for
105 years if there were and off switch to turn off civilization to to make it stop doing what it’s doing should that off switch
be polled I I think other people would say film arm depends on you know how much if
controlled in my view how much is controlled by the if on
switch and know how how deep the definition of civilization you have a do you mean people come on the read/write for foundation a foundation stone available
for have civilization I think that question is
more that their van people who’ve written about collapse love industrial society due to the depletion oil all for the depletion
of core call so that’s you know we’re no longer
able to grow the food in the quantity we can
because we no longer have the cheap and easy energy that we once had and so there’ve been writers and and various others that would say
know it might be as if all the machines were turned off
and all the electricity use of an although no all the the energy that makes civilization possible turned off there’s even you know science-fiction
writers who will say you know hypothetically that some
magical thing happens in all everything just terms of Austria have read my not prolong hammett yeah on if that were possible was it
something that should be done Rep on if put it that way it would be the with the hard way arm him it might work but in court be however price for billions would would would I but maybe it’s better than having the
whole species die on the one one problem I see with it is that if if this were to happen as if our vision process for people going to say is well okay with all the rubble but we can start Oprah and do it all
again and I think that would if people go on thinking this is the one right way for people
with people have to have the way meant people with mental as long
as they believe that go getting relive the tools for the machines wouldn’t
change anything people to fake we must do it again we
will start you know even if we have to start from
scratch we must do it again because it is the one right way for people to is humans were created to in this way we must go on
must do it again Corey million must change for even that very graphic solution without
being solution and its vision changes then perhaps more less traffic solutions will be found should be pointed out that when I’m in non-human community a when if a given species food supply diminishes
I’m they don’t star DOP starving to death
going to force during the winter you don’t find did the airliner on their population
diminishes I’m not just because they don’t have much food because getting the food takes
longer that work hard get food and help left time to make they have with time to on procreate on they are with able to care premium and for the population diminishes and it’s not a drastic
horrible period Nadia fashion for them on if something that I’m I’m very much raid humans are going to have to
reconcile himself to is seeing that if were willing if we want humanity to go on living on this planet then we’re going to have to reduce our
population from $7 billion already the impact for having on the plan is
simply too beer for us to be able to continue I I think that as devastating as the how they were oil crisis is going to be
and and recall crisis vaughn I think that time we will continue to keep putting that off decade
after decade after decade as long as we can are but this in the same with our population week we can’t go on putting off decade
after decade your decade the are annual continue growth a a population we can’t wait for the oil to run out very well we’re going to be destroyed we don’t
have to do anything to fed relax no def I K like you can’t wait for that
have you can’t wait for anything to happen on this is this is something we we’ve got
to now reconcile ourselves to seeing something happen starting soon as we can change people’s minds
made from see something my happen it sounds like you’re saying that we
shouldn’t grow more food to feed the hungry I we are not growing
more food to feed the hungry there’s never been a year with who with a hundred got fed every year the the hungry go on fed and every year we
grow more food to feed the hungry and they do not get
said after food we Grohl Coast into supporting are population growth which includes
hungry people so Rick get more people min crafted bigger lower-class
get bigger 200 get bigger growing more food effort
haven’t solve the problem I’m hungry and producing that food I will not create more hungry people he we can all I just our lives aku having agrees to begin with no more food than
we had last year people worked for see that you can have can live go on living no more food than they had
last year and nasa beginning 23 we Khalif hold the population than $7 billion
start there then then people can we can start working on on the question
go back 6 sick and a half billion who who not who you are because we’re not
cool should have me half a billion people on populations not going to grow but now start start wave: halting a population growth this seems like it would be an opposition to what we normally hear about the
importance of growing more food you when you’re here well thats their people I’m other nations that are
getting enough food and so we need to donate money to get them more food and for example and some vegetarians believe that by eating vegetarian meal that their is gonna be more food available to feed the hungry
because it takes a lotta love grain for example
to feed the collar and so the amount of food if you just take that same among the
food in you you feed people with the plant food rather than converting it
into animal food that that’s gonna feed more
people so if everyone for example was in the world
became vegetarian or vegan we would be able to
feed $10 billion people or $12 billion people it right and so way you seem to be saying this that isn’t isn’t the way you think a bit now at Hewitt February true so what that means is that the human
race have a couple more decade because complete vegetarian unfair to becoming $15 billion in thirty years becomes $15 billion in fifty years how long you want the human race to
survive giving money found isn’t really the
problem could cause you’ve got to have a food to buy began to feed the poor eww family growing the food from somebody by
given impact year after year food poor the hungry did not get bad starving
United I so it’s if area again this is an ocean very much voted by food growers and
producers I’m that we need to grow more food to
feed the hungry they like this idea is this an idea that’s been around for a
long time or is that a recent twentieth century
invention arm I suspect it probably is a twentieth century and that I could swear
to it I just remember you know now being told as a child you know you you can eat all the food on your
plate think about disarming tiny on come out with with seventy years ago I’ve never investigated the question you
have done a lot of writing what has banned your goal and doing all this trade from I’m believe youre not when I finish it now on traffic now with the name with the science fiction
writer who is on them the border judges Ray
Bradbury a örebro with her have me well what are you going to do next what was
your follow-up is I’ll pressure there is no there if up power I’m under I really thought you lied and then I started getting mail time for me we’ve got got tax in fact thousands of
letters captures all over not all that many in with
questions I have now I hadn’t done the job I there is still work to be done I’m still
factor to to to cover stuff I hadn’t I hadn’t really nail down and so I did story AP forget they write very good be
great for getting it is really important a the forgetting are a bar are RK pastor
hunting gathering path have shock fresco if he he still part of the great for
getting hear from realized that that resource base economy which part iv: partner a tribal
life get here look back are them a when I was finished with story be I’ve again follows finished anti got more
questions more questions and so I did my Ishmael for the first time
I’ve able to show I went into the fact that I
got not only do they have a terrific social organization a social
organization work they had educational system that worked like no education there’s no educational
system at all huh it works so well with invisible it
worked in work perfectly every generation live learned everything the previous
generation had because if they didn’t here’s why we
learned at all and they were able at a young age to pick up adult life and live successfully as their parents never went to a classroom never read the
textbook never took that on 10 when the fire teacher here in you can with school teacher was given a
task up you know magnet school taking the
kids who have been gathered simply because they were in the area unistory favor at risk youth giving creating a program for them from few read my issue and the program she create was one based on my idea there it
that kids will learn from following their parents around are
doing with their parents did helping your parents and she to teach
kids and sent them out in the community on spent days working in a in a company
here organization there doing restores just
being involved there grade went up parents were stocked with I their attitudes change it was so successful that is soo moves over it was cancelled
I if the teachers other teachers so Calif and they got for good reviews in there in the press we
think they got really right away %ah talk I had to do my from and them on i5 filling do something else and so I started in on be on
civilization I did something never tried before I I offered do a seminar here in peace
in for anyone who wanted to come down I spend the summer with me not every
minute but I but I would work with them everywhere well how many days baby have
doing a month week I don’t think so every night yeah and so I had about known probably weren’t
home and want one thing and they are all
great all my books it’s okay before we start gotta read the
new book I’m free all red the answer was Asian in manuscript and
they didn’t have any more questions I okay we’ve got nothing who I 0 so I knew that I’d gonna i dun the basic
job from the have done a better job with I’m
not be on for both Asian and I still had fielded some important work within new essays and speeches especially the new round found i think
is an important down speech to be read on on mine fine additional .org but i wasnt a I was exhausted as a
writer and so I’ve set out to write a novel that I thought would reflect a new vision what would a person with a
change mind what kind of novel with a person change
mind right as I wrote after dark I’ll and I think that was except for from
that point if you be possible to other people because what teaching book and then went on to
write the Holy which was a and is in strictly literary terms is my
most successful but again people were puzzled as to why
I wouldn’t work where was the guerilla I’m an having you can pretty much I really had said everything I have to say with those
books and then I wrote a book for about be
writing the books which with I think you’re right lined
paper right sideways trying to get to the store up my ideas how did I come to think this
way forget that would be valuable some
people have fun valuable but I am I haven’t written anything from them except answers more questions ride I’m put together about my short stories point week upon amazon dot com now I’ll probably put up ribbon at the
bottom want to them the fifth version and the
book that eventually became his smile if we know which version A and this is called the book down get published in in set up a published in in part three-part in I quite a good thing I really liked and
admired a lot they couldn’t couldn’t get all that I couldn’t get the whole plane
out there in that form and so I had to go on for six version but the fifth version if totality but
own fell probably published that as well but I apart my writing career is
finished I’m I I feel like I’ve been I may not be
a maybe I wake up in the morning I still
dream about having terrific book to write how them into your question what was that the you we’re setting out
to accomplish what were you trying to you to you home I’m are any good good and that question Bella man I’m after we were living in Chicago and I remember we were sitting heading in a
bar or overlooking Broadway North Broadway driving out to people where I said really got do something for those people I saw them as wondering has lost as purposeful meeting needing a new vision good I didn’t have
any ideal when I talking about that point on but again began struggling getting
something down on paper and Rhoda novel called man alien period find fan fiction novel my conversation between ordinary man and representative ever another culture in cultured who
explained that his own people were essentially lever people yeah a non non-competitive non not conflicting people people who are under threat have been on 300 thread on but didn’t want to change themselves to
meet the threat on from an enemy and sorry make faulk that they would take a an existing
population have intelligent beings and set them on
a path they would leave them into becoming world destroyers knew they’d finally exceeded when they saw it would create the atomic bomb now they
knew they had the equipment we had created
equipment for them to defend themselves made and perverted the course %uh human
history you order to develop the of their weapon have a clear idea but didn’t do the whole thing course
beginning and then I did you call the Genesis transcript which wife basically I’m another teacher pupil kinda thing human human teacher 31 the examiner the intensive especially the stories a Adam and even enable as a prototype our own culture eventually
did now I’m but again that didn’t I didn’t go deeply enough didn’t go far
enough to end a wide enough and I didn’t have the burden of that and
phil was not verified and I tried another novel called the book now harsh not harsh
being the WordPress serpent II people focusing in on the fall in particular and what the strip and with after word certain was really doing camping Adam any do which was to invent totalitarian golf course or didn’t call
it that that didn’t work either side I could I could get go all the way there
I didn’t next version which was the book down work wonderfully Wells
Fargo & Phil go far enough and so I did I’m another story to be in which got at the idea that we are enacting this story making it come true and during being we were made conquering rule the year and that’s what we’re doing were making
come true I did conversion that too and then reading it working ad hoc prime came across announcement in magazine
there mounting the Turner tomorrow competition which call for an a novel exploring solutions to world problem I thought I
had a book ready to go we need somebody else and
what did you do with a girl and so I rewrote it would know a would never have become
a success word for a smile he made his first appearance there in
that in that netbook yes 12 years so this male has now retired to Africa yeah permanently yeah have film for me recommit computing you email

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