Temple Grandin   Improving Animal Welfare  A Practical Approach expressed

Temple Grandin Improving Animal Welfare A Practical Approach expressed


talk a lot about a lot of things about livestock tonight and one of the first things I hope this is going to work well first thing you want to talk about when you’re working with any animal doesn’t matter what animal it is you’re doing veterinary work on a dog or a cat like calm animal is easier to handle once an animal gets all scared it takes half an hour from the calm back down so the secret is don’t get them upset in the first place another little secret is I can’t emphasize enough the importance of having a non-slip floor and handling facility animals panic when they start to slip they seem like a small thing that’s not a small thing you’ve all walked on ice it’s not good let’s keep them calm now how do we know when horses and cattle are Tom or they’re getting all excited and they’re getting all scared and when they get agitated it’s fear like the fear circuits and animals brains have been completely mapped when you’ve got a nice soft brown eyes on cattle and horses then they’re calm and when they start to get scared you’ll start to see the whites of their eyes there’s actually been scientific research on us now scientists figure out that when the whites of the eyes show the animals getting scared because you can stop it with valium not recommending you do that ears in the ears go back also watch what they’re looking at with the ears the tail switching tail is switching in cattle and horses they’re getting upset that’s your early warning before it kicks you are it you off heads up looking around ones with a relative high temperament heads up looking around ears pinned back want to get you more aware of what that animal is doing the better observers you know that’s also going to help really improve safety too and working with livestock now so the very first work I did was to look for all of the little distractions that animals are afraid of I found if you get rid of distractions like a chain hanging down in the chute a shadow a reflection I always get asked all the time do cattle know they’re gonna get slugged in fact I get this thing back from the grand , my website and like eight people had typed into Google do animals know they’re gonna die and that’s a question that I had to answer very early in my career so I go over to the local Swift plant then watch the cattle going up the chute and then I would go over to the feedlot and watch the cattle going up into the squeeze chute and they behaved the same way in both places if they knew that they were going to die they would be much more upset at the slaughter point no they’re afraid of things like the dark I’m trying to put a light on the chute entrance they go right up the chute now one of the big problems and eggs got today is they’re not communicating with the public one thing that really frustrates me I’ve worked a long time really working on improving slaughter plants well the public still thinks they’re bad just before it came here and a freshman call me a freshman English major well her only source of information was an animal activist website I explained to her that a lot of things have improved you need to look at some other websites look at some other books one of the things we need to be doing is showing people what we do two and a half years ago I put my stunning videos and meat plant handling videos on YouTube industry and a gigantic fit well I find that the public just curious because when I went out to Hollywood you know what the Hollywood press want to talk about what is a feedlot how does slaughter plants work they just want to know and one of the big problems we have with the Internet today is it makes radicals on both sides of an issue of a gigantic voice we got to start talking to all the just regular people out there in the middle it’s been really interesting being out on the road and I find that people are really surprised when they find out things like McDonald’s actually audits slaughter plants and they’ve been doing it for the last ten years they’re really very frustrating to me work on cleaning up slaughterhouses and I’m not going to call them harvest to plants I think that’s BS I found that the S word was just fine out in Hollywood in just a role matter-of-fact way you got to show what you’re doing and if you’re doing something to really make you squirm maybe you’re gonna need to change it and I have found I’ve taken a lot of people through well we’re on the slaughter plant and they’ve the kind of a maze now calmly I can’t we’ll walk up the chute they kind of go oh that’s not so bad now let’s look at things that when animals get into a novel environment that’s gonna stop their movement changes in the type of floor now if you have a dairy cow it’s used to walking over to different kinds of floor she’s gonna walk right over it but you got a beef animal goes into a new facility it’s gonna stop give it an opportunity to stop and put the head down because if you just push them up there they’re gonna turn back on you here’s a bad situation we got a lot of reflections you can get time-of-day effects where maybe truck loading in the morning works just great truck loading in the late afternoon is terrible because the sun’s coming up over the top of the truck so maybe you change the time that you load by two hours so you don’t blame them livestock have a tendency to go from a dark place to a brighter place like you can light up inside the building at night light up the inside of a trailer and they’ll tend to go in but they’re not going to go into blinding light you’ve all been on the freeway where the sun’s coming up and it’s just blinding you well an animal doesn’t want to go into the Hat neither do you so the first work I ever did I got down in the chutes to see what cattle we’re seeing people thought that was really crazy to look at what cattle are seeing and people often ask me well how did autism help me in my work with animals I’m an extreme visual thinker the HBO movie did a great job of showing how I think visually and Amazon does have it brought that up but I did and you know but to me as a complete visual thinker it seemed obvious to me to look at what cattle were seeing and I found in one feed yard this working facility worked great and then I had to say there was same design and another feed yard it worked badly and it was due to the orientation to the Sun you got people standing there well people have either got to get out of the way or they’re going to need to put solid sign up there you know what it’s really important but solid sides up is on perimeters of things you know where there’s feed trucks going by there’s people standing deep in the flight zone looking down that animal is avoiding walking on the Sunbeam want to get you aware of those sorts of things if one of the things I want you to do is be observant what’s the animal sound like what is he looking at if he’s pooping he’s probably scared don’t want him doing that this is what I call the black hole effect it’s real sunny outside and inside this cattle handling facility this building’s real super dark and on a sunny day just doesn’t work very well and the problem I’ve got if I try to light this up with electric lights it doesn’t work the Sun is 100 times brighter than any electric light I can buy that electric light will work for attracting him in at night works great what I got to do in this building is got to rip tin off I got to get natural daylight in there if you’re building a new facility strongly strongly recommend white translucent skylights I went into a fantastic dairy where their entire milking barn had concrete walls up to about here and then the whole top part was translucent garage doors that they could open up in the summertime and it made it so bright because what you want is nice shadow free natural light now this is a place that’s been retrofitted and they’ve put in a white translucent panels so now the cattle see that natural light but it doesn’t have shadows in one place where you really need to have solid it’s a crowd gate most important gate in the whole thing no matter what your design is is your crowd gate so they don’t tend to turn back on them and cram the gate back in your face do they know they’re going to get slaughtered I show this slide all the time to my students and I say tell me something that’s wrong in this slide and they’ll point out what the chain okay one thing that’s good as you got the white translucent panels but there’s something else really wrong in this slide I find over half my students don’t see it sometimes the most obvious is the least obvious well how about the three guys standing right where they shouldn’t be standing well you’re driving a cattle right into the three guys and one of them’s got mirrored sunglasses on that’s going to make him really scary you got to get the people out of that okay so somewhat curved facilities and one advantage of a curve is animals have a natural tendency go back to where they came from yes do you want to use that natural behavior out of perimeter that’s the most important part of it to have solid lessor out in the middle of nowhere but if you’re where there’s any distractions another thing that a curved chute does is it cuts down on the amount of walking because you can cut across the circle people don’t like to walk and I’m really pleased that there’s so much more interest today in low stress livestock handling I think that’s really great but all these methods require more walking moving smaller groups of animals and I get very frustrated because you know they do it when I’m there but then when my back’s turned then they’re bringing up too many cattle in a meat packing plant where we got a lot of distractions they’ll want to cover everything up make it completely solid another advantage of that curve chute is as those animals enter they don’t see all the people standing around the squeeze chute because they tend to not want to approach invisible people now you’ve got to lay these things out right and I don’t think this has a point yeah it does have a point good you got to lay it out right because when an animal is standing right there he’s got to be able to see up there – body lights if you bend it too sharp right here it will not work that’s what I call dead ending a shoot and I have a book called humane livestock handling where I’ve got all the drawings in it they did have a few copies here they’ve sold out but the bookstore can order them it’s humane livestock handling but this is the real critical part of the design another thing in laying out a tub is you want to go around in a full half circle so you take it of the natural tendency to go back to where they came from now I went down and visited the sheep unit just right here on the campus and it’s really nice it goes around with a full half circle because little tubs where it’s sort of a quarter circle it kind of goes like that that’s kind of useless i but you want to get a situation where you come on around and you get that following behavior another important design feature is you want to make sure you have enough single-file lead up chute space so I can use following behavior you know if that lead up chute only holds like two cows in there I can’t get any following Maeve because I like to wait until the chutes almost empty and then bring up five or six animals and fill up the chute then I’m using following now you’ll notice right here he’s got the backstop tied up people tend to put in too many back stops right there at that inference if you got that backstop gate down they won’t go in so another handy thing you can do is put a remote control rope on it then you can work that from over in the crowd pack and you’re not making all those cattle go clomp and through it then kind of a maze sometimes how I can fix up a facility with simple things like a remote control rope blocking up a side of the side where they can see a reflection on a truck people working with animals need to understand flight so if you have at a mud calves like I saw being fitted for showing today they got no flights on you can you can touch them you can groove Gulam these sheep I’ve got some flights on and if you have an animal that’s jumping up in the chute it’s doing that because you’re too close back up back up and get out of the flight zone don’t try to push it back down that’s gonna make the animal even more crazy now people have been doing a lot more selection for temperament and we’re getting calmer cattle a day we’ve done some work looking at little hair whirls that cattle have on their foreheads and when cantle have a real high up hair world tend to be more flighty and over the last 15 years people have been selecting for calmer so we got less of those real crazy camp well we better be careful because some of these calmer cattle might be less vigilant on protecting their baby see there’s always a trade-off I want to get rid of the nut cases but you wouldn’t necessarily want to select for the absolute most dead calm animals okay here’s a handy dandy way of getting a squeeze chute without so many price imagine this is the tailgate to the squeeze chute so I stand here the tailgate opens and it quickly just like this walked back by the shoulder of the next animal in line and when I walk back by them in the opposite direction of desired movement the quick movement it often makes me go forward that sounds kind of kind of counterintuitive a basic principle this works out on pasture too is when you walk in the opposite direction of desired movement in the flight zone they tend to go forward now when you’re in a chute situation like this the point of balance to be right here at the shoulder when you’re up real postural the mistake that people make is they stand here at the head and poke the butt I got to get people stop doing that so okay they might stand back here and then poke the butt and that often works but it doesn’t work as better as well as just going like this now when you’re up real close in the chute that point of balance is going to be at the shoulder you’ve got to get behind the shoulder to make them go forward now if you’re further out away let’s say you’re out here somewhere you may move along and the point of balance maybe just past the eye the eye is you get further away the point of balance tends to move forward but the point of balance is never in final aeon it’s got to be somewhere from behind the eye to the shoulder and when you get in real close by finding I finally working up close in and shoots I’ve got to tell them at the shoulder otherwise they don’t reliably go forward okay right there I’m using a stick with a flag on it to turn it down you get throw what deal be real calm with this thing I’m talking about doing very slight movements I want to get rid of all the yelling and screaming the first thing we got to do on low stress handling is you got to get everybody to calm down yelling and screaming a cabin is extremely extremely stressful it’s more stressful than the sound of a gate slamming because they know you screaming at so all I yelling and screaming and all the flapping around and what do I think about electric fried goose get it out of your hand sometimes you might have a stubborn animal that won’t go in the squeeze chute and it’s better to pick up the fraud and use it then be bending her tail off or hitting her but you should not be carrying the electric pride around in your hand something else should be the thing for your hand now notice here this round crowd pen is filled half full good cattle handling requires more walking now sheep on the other hand are the ultimate follower I can just move them and continuous flow but for cattle and picks you want to move small separate groups and I’m constantly fighting people putting too many cattle in the crowd pen so what you want to do is is you wait until there’s space and shooting and just bring the cattle up around here and pass on through you want to use a crowd pen as a passing through pen and if you really want to follow good low stress handling techniques you know one thing you’ve got to have is enough lead up shoot space okay let’s say you’ve got a little portable panel thing it’s got a little straight shoots two cows line once you get a couple more panels and make the lead up a bit longer then yeah that can that’s a simple thing you can do that can really improve handling now notice that crowd gates just on the first notch you don’t need to be pushing and shoving with the crowd gate also notice he’s standing back because if he stands here they won’t go in now half full if your crowd fan holds ten stuff to bring up five if it holds thirty stuff to bring up fifteen half full means half full now the big packing plants now some of that could come big companies now have video audited where auditors all over the internet can look at what’s going on in the crowd panel and I had a chance to go to arrow site Mission Control where video cameras hooked up to 23 of the large plants and I could look in and see what was going on if they’re unloading ramp and that crowd pounds and they’re stunning airy and my favorite plant that I’d worked so hard on with low stress handling that a new manager that seem to be so interested in it 30 cattle jammed in the crowd pen and two hot shots in the crowd pen they don’t even need to have electric prod to that Robin I was sold man so mad especially because it was that particular plant and I had just been down there working with him on handling people don’t want to walk that’s why they were jamming all those cattle in there because the good handling is going to require a lot more walking hey one of the ears Duncan doing look at how the zebra in the horse of an ear on each other the other ears on me watch those ears they point their ears towards things that concerned about I want you to watch for those kinds of things okay here are some principles of restraint non-slip flooring where I talked about that and I went over to your meat slab today I’m not going to call it the harvest facility I really think that’s BS i I use the S word and Hollywood goes over just fine and your stun box you viewed beautiful brand-new stun box the floors too slippery and what happens when you know Florida’s too slippery after they pee in there then they start drinking and they just start doing their foot like this in the panic and you’re going to need to put a steel grating in there you can go on Grandin calm I’ve got a picture in there shows exactly how to build the grating you got to weld the rods this way not on top of each other and you know what they’re going to settle right down in that stun box and then it’s gonna work just fine amazed at what I can do with non-slip flooring jerky motion scares sudden jerky motion scares both seeing it and feeling it and one thing that was really cool at the movie site is they had this big camera let’s call a giraffe with a high head big camera boom and it just moves smooth as silk like this and you know what you can put that right over the top for herd of cattle it’s like it’s not there because it doesn’t do jerky motion optimal pressure animal struggles they tend to squish it too hard that’s true whether you have a hydraulic squeeze chute are you holding a cat and non-slip flooring okay if you’re going to become veterinarians let’s give the dog a non-slip floor to stand on so he’s not slipping around and if you use a blindfold the block vision it’s gonna be completely opaque t-shirt that doesn’t work not opaque enough oh don’t tell me this isn’t gonna work next slide please okay I want to just talk some about my temperament we did some of the very first studies I’m looking at temperament and weight gain boy we did this stuff it was looked at like me or Christ and a cattle that scored a 4 but wants to try to come out the top and squeeze chute they had less weight gain this has been replicated I like to do the pioneering stuff leave the hair world stuff well the first journal article reviewer wrote back and said that was silly and it wasn’t science gonna reject our paper well now we’ve got people involved in all kinds of highfalutin genetic stuff cite in that paper now you know I tell my students have a paper gets rejected there’s three reasons it’s an absolute piece of garbage it’s so new that nobody believes it or it’s pure politics yeah that son that’s your three reasons why papers get rejected okay let’s go the next slide this is an important slide because I want to really get the idea across to you about handling stress okay high cortisol levels and rough handling it gets Radha quarters a lot of stress you come you do calmer handling with the cattle then you get less fear stress why is the dairy count lower because the dairy cow is trained this brings up a very important principle when animals voluntarily cooperate you cut down the fear stress so one of the things that’s being taught many of the low stress handling workshops now is to take young heifers and practice going through the chute let’s make first experiences coming into the corral it’s good first experiences not bad first experiences and right there we’ve got trained antelope that was another thing that was totally supposed to be totally impossible we trained antelope the voluntarily cooperate and get blood samples and shots in return for food treats okay next slide animals first experience but something new needs to be good make sure that your horses first experience with a horse trailer is a good first experience because of that first experience is bad he’s going to be afraid of it and you can get a fear memory and that fear memory is something the animal either was hearing or looking at the moment that it happened like there was an elephant that hated diesel-powered man if I ran with a diesel it was Ben that ran with gas it was fine another animal is afraid of a long the sticks anything that was a long straight thing has he been hit with sticks uh an animal knows the difference between a good person’s voice and the bad person’s voice they pick up on things that happen right when the bad thing happened and we need to be working more in acclimating animals to different handling procedures to go the next slide now think about a new experience or something new things that are new are both scary and attractive they are attractive the animal could voluntarily approach and they’re scary if you corner the animals shove it in their face they call it the paradox of novelty so I put that clipboard down there and I’ll count came up to it wind blows the paper they back up the paper stops blowing they come back and I used to call it curiously afraid and I you know you can see in 1998 we were first still fooling around doing this and I thought it’s gonna be like a switch in the brain because he act like three the fearful or they’re attracted to it the switch has now been found NIH funded research on drug addiction they found the switch in the nucleus accumbens brain can either go through seat or I can go to fear it can switch back and forth genetically flighting animals us which tends to be more balanced towards fear let’s go on the next slide now if you have animals really calm genetics you can introduce something suddenly you don’t get scared because a common test is opening an umbrella suddenly a novel stimulus there’s been some interesting research now done in France it just came out this year on well do the cattle no they’re going to die most of that fear you get at the slaughter plant its fear of novelty because animals that would get really scared when you popped an umbrella in their face out at the farm are the same animals that had higher heart rate and had higher stress responses at the slaughter plant it’s fair novelty it’s not fear of getting slaughtered let’s go the next slide man on a horse man on the ground cattle view that it’s two totally different things I’ve seen some really dangerous situations where you have cattle it might have a two foot flights on in a real super gentle when they’re worked on a horse but then when you handle them on foot they scattered it’s important that they get trained to both because I do a lot of work with the meat plants and I’ve seen some real dangerous stuff where you’ve had cattle come in never been worked on foot and they’ve run over some people at the plane because now you’ve got a 50-foot flights on in a 20-foot pan that’s not a safe situation so I think it’s important to get cattle habituated four-wheelers horses on foot they need practice going in and out of hands and make sure when you first introduce the new thing it’s done in a calm careful way one of the best ways introduce the animals to four-wheeler would be just bring it out in the field and let them come up and sniff it but don’t bring it out and then chase them with it because I just recently talked to some people where the cattle didn’t so terrorized with a four-wheeler that I don’t think they’re going to be able to use a four-wheeler on that hurt I mean half the herd is absolutely totally scared of them and then we’ve got to work on preventing fear memories because you have a horse it’s really scared of something I just talked to a some people to say afternoon we were discussing a horse that kicks when you cinch it up otherwise it’s the perfect riding horse it’s just when you cinch it up well it was abused probably kicked in the gut a whole bunch of times and it doesn’t forget that that’s the problem and unfortunately I am gonna have to put a cinch on now for the horse man on the ground man on those two different file folders in the animals brain I’ve seen horses where they were fine for veterinarian shoeing buck you off on your rider does the abuse have happened with writing or you can have just the opposite writing is bad on the grounds good now when you think about it it’s a different picture see an animal is a sensory based thinker they store their memories as pictures as sounds as touch sensations I’ve seen several horses where you use a one piece bit they act just fine use a jointed snaffle they’re going berserk and the reason for that is they were abused with all those horrible twisted wired join it snaps so now all jointed bits are back but I want you to go down on the tack room and take some different kinds of bits hold them in your hand and think about how they feel differently because sometimes a horse is afraid of a particular kind of bit I just get rid of it that’s like an easy way if I can like eliminate the thing they’re afraid of but if you have a horse is afraid of sticks that’s gonna be hard I can’t get rid of all the show sticks and things like that microphone stands you’re gonna have that stuff around next slide please now I want to talk about measuring animal welfare because I got very frustrated going to places a bill nice facilities half my clients tore up the stuff and wrecked it and the only thing that kept me going is there were a few clients really did things right and when I first started my career I thought I could fix everything with equipment I can only fix half of the problems with equipment the other thing is I got to fix with management so then I spent more and more time training managers I’ve gotten right on a lot of training employees I got to convince the managers that good handling is really important now I’m a pocke auditor trainer I train the people that audit the plants that are hired by people like McDonald’s and Wendy’s don’t audit plants to make sure they do things right and when we started doing that 10 years ago it resulted in more change than I’d seen in a 25-year career prior to that and I was also amazed and now we took some of the old junky plants and I fixed them because I had to figure out a way to fix these plants without spending a fortune I was amazed and what will steel rods in the floor of the stun box on mazed how that worked rubber tire mats put out on the unloading dock amazing it’s amazing what you can do with cardboard and plywood and portable lights and moving lights and changing how people handle the cattle I fixed most of the old plants then out of 75 plants on the McDonald’s approved supplier list only three had to do complete makeovers it’s expensive remodels everybody else we fixed with the simple things and I wrote up a really simple scoring system I did until plants how they had to build their facilities they had to achieve certain outcomes this is a different way of looking at things are we gonna tell people how to do things I don’t care whether it’s health care or whether it’s education we need to be looking more at what kind of outcomes that we’re getting on things and by doing this measurement it prevents bad from becoming normal because some of these plants that went back to like jam and 30 cattle in the crowd pan that actually was a year later that I looked at the video they regressed back slowly into these old bad habits I call it bad become Norma how did the dairy industry get up to 25% lame caps that happened slowly I’m very happy that the cows here really good on labels and so we got to measure him we got to measure things like handling to keep it good go the next slide and what we’re developing systems for you know measuring and for evaluating things we’ve got to get rid of these vague words like adequate proper and sufficient what does that mean you see the normal human mind tends to oversimplify there’s been research that shows that’s true tends to get too abstract I don’t know what proper handling is your idea of proper handling might be very different than mine maybe hot shot 10 times on every animal some people might think that’s proper hammer I think that’s just terrible you need to be writing guidelines so that they’ll be interpreted the same way by different people let’s go to the next slide you know this is an example of a well-written guideline all up pigs have to have enough room all lay down without being on top of each other you got to write something that’s clear you don’t just say give them enough wrong next slide okay let’s look at things for scoring animal handling on a ranch I want animals moving in a walk and a truck not in a run so what percentage of the cattle were moved at a walk in a truck how many animals fell down during handling I hope none but if you got animals falling down and ramming into things that’s not very good how many animals focalize that’s one of the ones that really worked in the plants the Passyunk Donald’s on it you’re allowed to only have three cattle in the stunning chute move and if more than three cattle Moo you family on and why was vocalization a good measure because when you do bad things and they move poke him with a prod more likely to move Nutcracker to head in the squeeze chute they’re gonna move now obviously if you brand them they’re gonna move so when you’re doing this for a handling on it you measure can I get them into the squeeze chute and get them caught can I catch them without a move they Moo and you catch them then you hurt them with a squeeze chute and if they’re moving back in the snake big or whatever kind of shoot you just your pride them all up that’s something bad that needs to stop and then how many animals had used the electric Prada now some people say well I just family I’ve seen too many cattle I’d be used when they absolutely wouldn’t go in the squeeze chute I’m the one who picked up the electric prod before somebody broke the tail off you know but then get it out of your hand and put it away let’s go to the next slide this is the very simple scoring system that we used for scoring the plants we measure five simple outcome variables this uses what’s called a hassle approach which stands for hazard analysis critical control points what are the really important things that I need to measure okay how many cattle did I shoot the stunner on a single shot it’s gonna be 95% to pass I got to get them all insensible how many get poked with the electric prod how many were mooing in their study area how many fell down that’s measured it on loading and its measured going up the stunning shoot but you see these are outcomes they could move through the prize they can move to a miss stun they could move to a gate being slammed on them a restraint device that squashes on I’ll make a move these are outcome variables you don’t see anything in here about equipment design make deliberately took all the design stuff out of it we’re not going to tell them how to make a floor but they got them in you know if they have more than 1% of the cattle fall they fail they on then they better fix the floor so they’re gonna need to do and everything’s on a per animal basis well surprise used on that cow yes or no didn’t move yes no it’s very very simple very easy to train people because I gotta have something where I can train people in a day-and-a-half workshop that’s a reality let’s go to the next slide now the thing is good about this is whether I on it that plan you wanted to plant we’re getting the same scores that’s what’s called interobserver reliability let’s go to the next slide now in 1996 only 30 percent of the plants could pass the stunning on it you know why they couldn’t pass it lack of maintenance they simply didn’t take care of the equipment well now they’re doing a lot better job they’ve got test fans they got you know documented maintenance programs you know 2010 data 100 percent of the plants passed on the stunning on it you can go on Grandin calm and look at all the figures from these audits you manage things that you measure and the thing that’s good about measurement is I can tell am I getting worse or am I getting better now what we’ve been finding with the video auditing is that people tend to fake good run the person with the clipboard is out there and what we found is the stunning doesn’t change that’s so dependent on the maintenance of the equipment it’s the handling backs turned the prides come out hate to say it happened in a whole bunch of different plants then they were doing them internal audits and so on sort of did some fake stuff on that it’s the handling it’s constant vigilance and what I have found on cattle handling is is they’re about twenty percent of people that it’s always stay good they’re the natural low stress Stockman ship people then I can train most others and this is about ten percent that shouldn’t be handed out there with cattle because they like to be bad things Dylan I know that’s not nice but that’s what we found since the video a lot of things been put in let’s go to the next slide the principle is you measure a small number of critical control points then measure a multitude of problems it’s a very simple concept let’s say we applied that to schools well I got three things get really good scores on international tests stay out of trouble or the law get them keep decent jobs well that would be a pretty good outcome measure you say yeah I learned a lot from this to look at problems in kind of a different way and the principle is you got to pick out critical control points that are easy to measure that measure a multitude of problems I’m not going to tell them what kind of stunning equipment to use or what kind of cattle handling equipment to use they’ve got to make these measures and then we do have a few things that are forbidden you can’t do things like hanging cattle up by the ankle though you can’t drag down which there’s some stuff that’s forbidden but as long as you don’t do that stuff you’re free to design it however you want let’s go to the next slide the other thing is it’s not a paper work on it there’s a tendency today to change everything into paperwork on it well I mean I have people good at faking paperwork well I’ve worked in a construction industry you know the fake bids and you know saw all that stuff the fake truckers logbooks seen all that stuff the other thing is we’re looking at stuff that’s directly absorbed I want practical anybody who’s interested in this kind of stuff I’ve got a book I’ve done with cabby called improving animal welfare a practical approach the title of the book tells you how to set up auditing programs let’s go onto the next slide well I can also use the measurements to show how simple changes improves the animal handling you cannot have air blowing in their face you got air blowing in their face they won’t go up the chute so I change the ventilation in the plant and I went from four and a half percent vocalizing down to zero because I didn’t have to prod them all the time let’s go to the next slide this one was for page that I just lit up the entrance for the light that I taped to the entrance of the chute with duct tape now when weighing from 38 percent down to four all I did was stick a light on the entrance of the chute you know the other thing we got to get people to do is to use behavior and not force and this is a hard concept for people some people to get their head around it still amazes me how one little light makes such a big difference one of the next slide now this is my center track restrainer system you’ve got that in the plant right here in Hiram in fact half the cattle in this country when they’re handling a meat plant they handle too much center track restrainer system now right here we’ve got a non-slip ramp notice how it looks a lot like the dip that entrance in the movie and that thing with a metal plate the movie that actually happened they drowned those cattle and they didn’t even try to use it they just assumed that wouldn’t work where you let the cattle walk in now 35 years later I got people making the same mistake this year in 2010 I had one plant cut their ramp in half another plant took the cleats off and the one that took the cleats off a really annoyed because they let their light break and instead of replacing their light they messed around with the ramp you see and I think some of this problem is they’re not seeing the behavior well they need to watch the segment in the movie about the design of the ramp it’s exactly the same thing you get it lighted right you also have to have a false floor here so they don’t see it this whole thing is seven feet above the floor you know this gets back to the work I did with optical illusions and you control what they see and then they’ll walk right in there well that’s a next slide now one of the problems you’ve got to make sure you don’t have is what’s called the visual cliff when I took psychology I studied the visual cliff and both animals and babies don’t want to walk out over a plate-glass that’s four feet above the ground and you get things right in the visual cliff and the fear of falling is a primal fear because I had a chance to go to a virtual reality room okay walk into this thing it looks like the set of a weather thing in a TV station very fake looking and obviously there weren’t any holes in the floor or anything like that so you put on this helmet and the next thing I know I’m on this balcony and they’re gonna push me off this balcony and I yelled and I fell BAM Oh standing on a wooden floor in front of a paper thing like you have for the weather deal at a TV station I knew it was fake I saw it when before I put the helmet on but that’s such a powerful effect that I reacted to them and I’ve read scientific papers were people react to that they know there’s no trapdoor in the floor they try to push somebody into a trapdoor let’s go to the next slide okay put a light on there anything I went from 8% mooing down to 0% here’s the false floor 9% moving down to zero another one where I had a head gate that squashed their neck I make it looser they stop mooing this is simple things I want to get you thinking about this because I know a lot of people do they don’t want to build a lot of really expensive things let’s go onto the next slide there’s the light what you got to make sure it doesn’t break all that frustrated me and they somebody I couldn’t believe some of the stuff they did and the thing is it was well-intentioned I’m really beginning to see that they’re not seeing it sometimes the most obvious is the least obvious I read about the Japanese nuclear power plant disaster and I go how could they do this how could they put the emergency generators that run the backup pump that keeps the reactors from burning up in the basement you live next to the sea what’s going to happen to those generators in the basement they’re going to go underwater and they don’t wreck for they’re underwater and that’s why for nuclear power plants burned up that’s the reason the earthquake came and on at least three of the plants the generators came on and everything was working not sure of one of them I’ve had to piece a lot of stuff together in the papers they’ve not released all the drawings on it but why didn’t they have submarine doors sometimes the most obvious is the least obvious Chernobyl is even stupider the nuclear power plant that naked nuclear power plant no containment bully then you decide you’re gonna do a test and you’re gonna turn off all your safety systems you know what it’s saying when I was working all the time in construction never underestimate the laziness of the stupidity of people operating equipment okay let’s go to the next slide now we get into slaughter plants pretty nice but I’ve got a welfare issue I’m getting really worried about now and that’s how the animals behave coming in to the plant pigs even fed so much ractopamine that they’re really really weak cattle that are so super wild where they haven’t been handled on foot those are real super dangerous to handle on animals that have been who’s jacked up on too many beta agonists and RAC dopamine those kind of products and they’re coming in heat stressed coming in lame old dairy cows that are half dead you know we’re getting into what we’re gonna have to push back down the supply chain you got to give me an animal I can handle not something that’s crazy weak half dead or heat stressed let’s go to the next slide and there’s different kinds of variables what I’ve been talking about so far as animal based tiger you know it’s an outcome measure and then you have a few things you just ban and the only way I’m looking at things all these engineering things where you’re telling people exactly how to do things there’s a few engineering things I need like maybe ammonia levels indoor buildings it’s a few things like that I’m going to need but I don’t want to get into the minutia telling you how to build stalls for dairy cows I’d rather measure the outcome lameness hock lesions that’s the outcome if there’s something wrong with their stalls let’s go the next slide well these are outcome measures I want to measure on a dairy how many skinny calves oh my god how about lameness there’s a zillion different things that make lameness you’re doing stuff bad management I’ll catch you on the lameness score when they’re walking out of the park how many filthy dirty ones how many I have swords like neglected cancer eyes and cattle how about cold condition for your organic guys no it’s not okay to have lice and bald spots and ringworm on camps no that’s not alright I’ve seen some bad becoming normal on that how about ammonia levels and indoor facilities and abnormal behavior these are very basic things that I’d want to measure on any farm there’s simple things they’re easy to measure let’s go on the next slide now lameness is a good outcome measure just look at all the different things that can make a cow Lane so when I’m doing an audit which is kind of like a screening tool for problems it’s up to the veterinarians and the animal scientists to fix the lameness but I can pinpoint if there’s a problem lameness scoring like a pin point many different problems let’s go to the next slide well then there’s some things we’re gonna have to get rid of the public is simply not going to accept sale gestation stalls let’s get rid of them and we’re going to need to change some Pig genetics get some page that get along better with each other and don’t fight so much as we’ve been 25 years pigs living in boxes so there’s been no selection pressure it takes it don’t fight you know let the small chicken cages there are some good things out there Fair Oaks farm doing a fantastic job on educating the public they got a calf cam you can go to j/s West look at their chicken cam I’m getting to the point now well we need to be to streaming rollout to the internet because if we don’t show it all the people are going to show it for us and remember my freshmen that I just talked to freshman English major and I the web sites I she’s not young she doesn’t even know how to search scientific databases in fact I explained to her about the PubMed database ScienceDirect Google Scholar she didn’t even know those things existed well this gets into critical thinking and really digging into things let’s go to the next slide well these are a few input measures that you need there’s still a few things work you know space or climbers there’s a few engineering measures but we need to be getting away from my new shove telling people exactly how to build things and go more towards outcome measures let’s go to the next slide that’s my website Grandin calm I got lots and lots of information on there and hopefully now we’ve got some time for some questions does I always like to do some questions so it’s great to have everybody here Thank You dr. Grandin for coming to Utah State that was a very inspiring talk and it’s a truly dream come true to see a talk live my question concerns management you mentioned that good and bad managers have a lot to do with how animal welfare is implemented in systems if managers don’t get on board with the idea of animal welfare in your mind what’s the most effective way to change that behavior is it incentive programs sanction they they in the McDonald’s program ten years ago a lot of 75 plants three plant managers were fired or retired I management has got to buy in doing things right and it’s not just animal welfare the other thing is economic incentives I did a study where I looked at bruises on camp I know how to get rid of bruises when people have to pay for them you get rid of them it’s that simple I look at live weight cattle versus carcass weight cattle and when the feed Lots have to pay for the bruises guess what they got rid of them okay weak pigs thing you can’t handle weak awful pigs now one plant got rid of them the twenty five dollar expenses fee for the use of the Bobcat loader to move pigs around I visited that plant just a few weeks ago their pigs are really good two years ago their pigs were awful well then the farm is going to make sure its pigs are strong enough to walk off the truck and walk up at the star economic incentives have a really big effect but there’s some managers where things don’t change until management gets changed see now big corporations it’s much easier to get rid of managers some of the worst problems I’ve seen little small meatpacking plant management’s family and I’m what I have found on a really small little tiny slaughterhouses through either really nice or they’re really awful because so much depends upon the personality of manager but if you want to improve all kinds of things not just Walter you’ve got to have management buy-in to doing things right okay you know um you were talking about you know electric lights and how they’re used to you know guy cattle Ford could you have this could you have a similar effect if you just had you know one or two lights and then have a bunch of mirrors or no I don’t think that’s probably gonna probably gonna work now and as people have tried things like that you know where it light works best is in you’ve got a place where the hard to get into like in a shoot if you’re inside a building where the eyes of the animal are adjusted to the light I can use artificial light to attract them and that’s not going to work outside the sun’s 100 times brighter than any light but I can use lights at night I’ve had people where they couldn’t get their animal loaded I said wants to try load in the horse trailer at night put a light inside track them in at night that sometimes works really well I’ve seen a lot of facilities where they horrible in the daytime actually worked really quite well at night because then I can control things with artificial light let them competing against the Sun I can’t do that you know if I’ve got the black hole effect I got to get tin off I got to get light in there okay I’m basically wondering if you’ve had any experience with the open-air slaughterhouse facility type farms Polyface farms aren’t Virginia they do natural pest rotation they slaughter their own animals sometimes outside the problem went with something like that something like that may work on a very small scale but on a large scale or turn into a filthy mess you know you take like a big plant here like Hyrum they spend one whole shift cleaning it and if you were to go in that plant at midnight they they spray all this stuff looks like a 10,000 cans of shaving cream then put in there things that won’t work on a small scale often won’t work when you scale it up now I think some of the things that Sullivan’s done on pasture rotation I’m getting really interested in some of these intensive grazing things I think this is where we can really do things a ruminant animals because there’s so much land in this country that cannot be cropped and the only way grow food on that land is ruminants and things where you taking sheep and cattle together the the grazing things on I think there’s things that we can learn from that and we need to be working on morning those sort of things but like even let’s say we slaughtered you know commercial amounts of chickens outside that big complete mess alright because you have no way to clean it my question is the Steve still horseback ride I don’t know I mean I I my balance has gotten so bad and I I just can’t hardly out of trouble balancing have you found a correlation between stress and dystocia or having problems and animals well I think that you know you know I haven’t researched that thing but if the animals scared and not relaxed around people it’s not it’s not gonna wanna calves cattle have a natural tendency to hide you know when they’re capping you want to hide from the predator so if the animal is viewing its caretakers predators then it’s not going to want to calve and that possibly could cause a problem with dystocia it’s very important that animals not be afraid of the caretakers there’s a scientist named Paul Hemsworth and he’s been doing research for years and what he has found is animals that are afraid of their caretakers they have a big flight zone give less milk pigs have 8% less eggs they’re going to be less productive you don’t want to have farm animals that are afraid of their caretakers you know you go in the dairy and all cows run to the other end of the barn that’s not a good sign dr. Grandin I am an agricultural communications major and I was excited to hear you talk a little bit about the message that we need to be spreading um what in your opinion are the most important messages that we can all share with the public and what’s the best way to do that I think we need to just show what we do and the videos I put up on YouTube we’re training videos they don’t say than anything is wonderful they just say okay the stunned pigs correctly this is how you do it and that videos got with a million use now you are going to have to please these sites for F funds and what I have found is there’s a small amount of people they’ll write really vulgar stuff and that you have to block and delete but I don’t take down dissent if somebody said be a vegan or meets evil I don’t take that down I don’t take dissent down but discussion has to be civil then the other thing is when you write back never type directly on the webpage that’s too dangerous you type it somewhere else and then you transfer it over there the next day because you don’t want to be responding back an anger but I think basically but we got to do and I think the public’s smarter than we think you just open up the houses so we do that can be done electronically we need putting videos up like things like well this is like taking care of a calving on our ranch and just explaining it and and what we do and writing stuff on there well we were family rants we’re not a big bed you know factory farm capital better use those key words because when I go on YouTube when I went on YouTube two and a half years ago I typed in cattle feedlot I got nothing but bad stuff now I type in cattle feed yard or cattle feedlot and I get normal stuff like cattle eaten out of the feed bunk loaders scooping up great now if I type in calf all I get bad stuff so we’re gonna have to start using that keyword but the public is actually hungry just to look at normal stuff now to us a loader scooping brain is boring but some little eight-year-old kid a loader scooping grain is pretty cool it’s we need to just show we need to open up the house electronically and to show what we do not a lot of PR BS but just okay this is what we do and this is why we do it and there’s some practices we’ve better clean up and I’m getting very concerned about what I call biological system overload we’re pushing the dairy cattle where she’s not breeding on beef animals is jacked up on so many beta agonists that they’ve got hoof problems they’ve got a sore feet and they got heat stress I I saw two bad cases of this a summer and the thing that’s really weird is if you have three truckloads of cattle it doesn’t affect all the animals evenly it makes a few animals really messed up a lot of the animals appear to be okay then about 20 percent are gonna be sore footed I got problems with that lameness feedlot cattle I didn’t think we’d ever get there but we are now you see that’s pushing the biology too hard you know I’ll go with measuring the outcome but I don’t want to see sort footed cattle and I better not see any tongues out and those mouths open up you got open mouths they’re hot that’s a very easy thing to score dr. Grandin my son wanted to ask you a question before and he just wanted hurry and ask that question now okay how do you focus on one thing and keep yourself from focusing on your surroundings that’s very distracting well first of all you need a quiet place to do your homework away from distracting you need but the phone’s away and things like that I find I’ve got to do something like write a serious article I gotta have a block of time of at least four hours where I can just sit down and work on that article where you’re gonna get rid of all text messaging rid of all the distractions and you just concentrate on the thing you’ve got to get done okay how to become the best Rancher yeah well I’d recommend getting out seeing as many ranches as possible in turning in the summer at different ranches travels a great educator and I’ve learned some real lessons back when I first started I thought everything we had in Arizona was wonderful then I went to Australia and I saw some of those beautiful meat plants had ever seen get out and see as much stuff as you can see the good the bad everything in between the more stuff you see that’ll help you to be a better rancher over here tempo okay oh and then you might want to get my book you main livestock handling I want to get that it’s called humane livestock handling what’s your favorite dog favorite dog well I really like golden retrievers and Labradors very much okay I think everyone here like to know how you like your steak cooked I like it medium-rare I got no intention of giving up meat and people ask me how could I still be in the industry when there’s things going on that are wrong and in the epilogue in the afterword of animals make us human I discuss how did I manage to stay in the industry when cattle handling in the 70s was so awful because there were a few people that did things right the other thing is in Arizona feed yards were not mud holes they had shade so even though the handling of cattle really occurs cattle handling today’s cotton is getting a lot better the living conditions for those cattle were good they had shade and they weren’t slogging around in the mud if the cattle back in my cattle formative years in the early 70s have been slopping in this much mud maybe my career might have gone somewhere else but they weren’t and I could see the handling as something that I could fix because there were some people that did things right one more question all right I have an idea about how to help with the stereotyping I wonder if I could talk to you afterwards about that I mean stereotyping about about what stereotyping the that’s not I pronounce it but stereotyping with zoo animals oh okay well actually I address that issue in my book animals make us human and one of the things we talk about is you’ve got to look at what’s motivating a behavior is it fear okay if animals are having a problem during handling that’s fear then I talked about seeking where they tend to approach the novelty that’s an emotional system in the brain you can also separation anxiety you you use you separate the calves you know they they have the separation distress a trait you can have rage of course you got sex you got play and you got the mother young nurturing baby there’s emotional systems in the and nine grazing animals tend to develop mouth stereo Tippy’s like cribbing because that’s an animal that spends a lot of its life just grazing animals that are big seekers like the polar bear they do pacing gerbils that do compulsive digging that’s motivated by fear because they’re trying to dig a hole to get cover from the non-existent predators so in that situation the stereotypic behavior is driven by fear where the polar bear is driven by seeking urge and some people might say well that’s not science what you’re talking about but all these things on emotional systems and animals brains it’s all in the neuroscience literature see this is where different literature’s don’t communicate with each other because the emotional basic emotional systems like fear separation distress neuroscientists call it panic I’m not a fan of that word because it gets mixed up with fear rage says novelty seeking and then sex play and and mother young nurturing all of that stuff’s been documented thousands of papers but it’s all in neuroscience people tend to not read across disciplines one thing I’ve tried to do my entire career they’ll really recommend to students read across disciplines don’t just read the animal science stuff read veterinary stuff read neuroscience stuff I get all these magazines I get science and nature and all these then read all these newspapers and all this stuff because really understand you need to get across disciplines a lot of this seems to be on confined cattle slaughterhouses and feed rise and whatnot what about handling practices out in the open auction yards and so forth Oh some yards that’s one of the places where we still got a lot of problems that is probably one of the worst segments of the industry you see and one of the problems you got there’s they don’t only animal you know they get sick then it’s somebody else’s problem we’re still getting way too many calves weaned on a truck well if a rancher doesn’t get a premium for pre vaccinating and pre weaning then they’re not going to do it cattle that are in a dedicated supply chain those tend to get preconditioned and vaccinated vaccinations 45 days prior all the things to do but there’s still a lot of babies getting weaned on the trucks and there seem to be regional differences in this there are certain regions of the country well that’s still a great big problem and what happens there is you’re it’s a segmented market chain so then you pass that sickness on to the next segment there’s somebody else’s problem when they get sick ten days later accountability for losses when I first started I can remember bill Fleming the editor of beef saying to me it’s all in economics they didn’t believe them and I have found that you know when McDonald’s came in and put the power of McDonald’s behind these audits what things got cleaned up because a plant didn’t want to get kicked off the approved supplier list and one of the reasons why it worked is that the audit was very clear very clear numerical scoring you either pass it or you don’t and and I worked beyond my wildest dreams frustrates me that most of the public doesn’t know about it thanks for coming dr. Grandin you’ve just given us a presentation about how the meat production process can be made more efficient and more profitable but I think it’s ignoring the fundamental moral questions involved which are use of animals for food and not just their treatment if you had made the same arguments using dogs or cats as opposed to sheeps dogs or pigs sheeps cows or pigs we would have been equally horrified you know how do we make them bark less or meow less and I think that I would just like to ask you what’s the fundamental difference between the dogs and cats we love and the animals that we stick our Forks well look at it’s the neurological standpoint things like brain and cephalization there isn’t any difference I’m now I myself I’m well I couldn’t be a vegan even if I wanted to be I can’t function on the vegan diet but the o-positive fourth type get lightheaded if I don’t eat I’d have to at least eat eggs I feel very strongly that we’ve got to treat animals right and ruminant animals you know we’ve got all we’ve got all this land I think the feeding of corn come in somewhere in the distant future you know we need to stop feeding it to ethanol plants you get known that energy gain you better off eating sugar beets to ethanol plants but there’s all this land only way you can raise food on that land is woman’s there’s no other way you know ruminants being cattle sheep goats that you know the the grazing animals now I’ve done thought of thinking and I thought well those cattle would never exist I remember when I worked on my very first center track restrainer system I stood in this big catwalk over sea of cattle underneath me that’s kind of I just had a design really efficient system for killing cattle and and I thought none of those cattle would have been born and we got to give them a life that’s worth living that I feel very strongly about the other thing if people forget is nature’s not very nice there’s nothing nice about how wolves will dine on the live guts of an animal big cat stop killing it first but the wolves don’t bikinis just rip out the tummy and slurp up the nice worm guts and you know maybe in the future I mean you know we can just uh if you want to grow meat artificially you wouldn’t use mammalian protein you probably just grow scallops without shells I have to worry about scallop welfare there’s no nervous system there to worry about no scallops and it cold-blooded so it’s a lot more energy efficient to raise animal protein of scallops rather than you know I know the pitas worked on funding you know artificial mammalian protein that’s not the way to go energies expenditures way too high you know a a warm-blooded muscle has they’ve taken a lot more food than than fish would because it’s cold blooded warm blooded metabolism this energy expensive and you know you’re gonna argue a lot of different moral things but I’ve decided that we can use animals ethically for food a lot of things there’s still got to be changed I’m very concerned about this biological system overload I see some pigs coming in that are so weak they can’t walk off the truck up through the stockyards ah it makes me really mad I see soare footage Cadillac that’s not okay now there’s some people think we shouldn’t use animals at all for anything well people have been with animals for many years I found an interesting scientific paper where people’s brains when they see animals that kind of turns on the brain more than maybe trees or some other thing and there’s some people really in district’ animal rights to think that you shouldn’t even have pets you know because you’re explaining hat is you really want to be in a world where there’s people that do nothing with animals if you want to save all the wildlife we’re gonna have to manage it you see in looking at making change there’s two kinds of people you know what made McDonald’s originally do something it was the McLibel suit you could look that up on the Internet heat softens steel activists groups can soften the steel and then implementers like me can bend it into pretty bulwark and in looking at some of these issues you get into things well am I gonna be a reformer and try to fix the meat industry or you want to get rid of it well there’s some people that feel that we need to just get rid of it I don’t have to agree with that I’m a reformer and I’m I was seeing some of the stuff that some of the activist groups are doing now it’s pretty destructive also on a totally practical person but want to make fix things on the ground what’s your major okay all I can say is don’t make your policies so abstract okay there you main group shut down the horse slaughter plants so let me tell you the mess you’ve got now they’re all going down to Mexico and they’re going into something that’s just so bad they got their lists and they shut them down but the horses are getting a fate a lot worse than the slaughter in the United States it’s absolutely a disaster and there’s no control once they go over that border there’s no control you think you can close that border you’re smoking weed because they caused X it’s Simon [Applause] Homeland Security’s a one-way valve I’ve been to the border you can go in and it’s a three-hour passport hassle coming back out and they’ll just launder them as riding and breeding horses sealing the border is impossible where you gonna get the funding you can put up the other side of the valve on Homeland Security because that’s the only way you could seal the border we’ve got to make sure that whatever policies we have we don’t get so far away from the ground see I’m a bottom-up thinker let’s look at other issues like education and health care he will argue over whether it’s this kind of medicine or that kind of medicine you know what I don’t want to talk about abstractions what do we do about the lady whose teeth are rotting can’t get basic health care what do we do about that I don’t want to talk about abstractions I don’t you see is a visual thinker I’m totally not abstract totally I’m only into making real change on the ground but mother says to me well my kid went to college because of something he’s read in my book that makes me happy or another mom I wrote about acid reflux problems and nonverbal individuals with autism the kid can sleep now because they gave him some acid reflux medicine okay that made positive change on the ground you see this is where you have the different kinds of minds you know things totally in the abstract there’s people in the world that heat the steel then there’s people in the world that bend the steel the implement I own the thing that worries me today a lot of policy things but things are getting so abstract that we’re doing messes like that horse slaughter thing it’s a mess now they got their wish and made a real mess you got to make sure that what you do doesn’t make a real mess on in the practical world so whatever you want to get involved in you’re getting involved much practical stuff anything practical I’m very concerned today that people are getting away from practical things they take in hands-on classes out of the schools and one of the reasons why we have so much trouble with the government right now is you’ve got people coming out of college with degrees in Poli Sci they’ve never done anything practical build anything work in a hospital people that are in poverty I mean done practical stuff okay I think we’ll end on that and thank you [Applause] you [Applause]

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